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| Pictured : Intelligent debate |
George Hawtin
What was most surprising to you about the first episode of the rewatch? For me, it was Papa Bear. I'd completely misremembered him. For one thing, the "Papa Bear" nickname seems to be something he embraces - I thought it was something the show had forced on him, and I was always uncomfortable with that. For another, he just seems like a really attuned player - smart, diplomatic, friendly with everyone. I say bring back Papa Bear.
What was most surprising to you about the first episode of the rewatch? For me, it was Papa Bear. I'd completely misremembered him. For one thing, the "Papa Bear" nickname seems to be something he embraces - I thought it was something the show had forced on him, and I was always uncomfortable with that. For another, he just seems like a really attuned player - smart, diplomatic, friendly with everyone. I say bring back Papa Bear.
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| Please... |
Mark Kalzer
Papa Bear did surprised me (but I'll still never forgive him for giving up the name Mark thus prolonging the Mark drought on Survivor.) Having just looked at a few premieres this week, it's a bit of a misnomer that the pre-merge boots don't get coverage. We actually even got a good look at Elyse who I recall not noticing the first time until she got to Ozzy just before getting voted off.
I wonder how much this has to do with the balance of the coverage and that I'm only noticing them more now since we spent so little time with them overall.
We should point out we're writing this in the aftermath of Caramoan where the pre-merge episodes were dominated entirely by the loudest males on each tribe. I think that was more of an exception. Probst even seems to be aware of it as a flaw in the edit.
George Hawtin
The premiere is often the story of the first boot. I think South Pacific fits that template pretty well - you get a good sense of Semhar as both weak in challenges, and strategically/interpersonally sort of inept. It's the people between the second boot and the end of the pre-merge boots that often end up underserviced.
Mark Kalzer
But of course the premiere always has this advantage. Later on we'll be getting meaningless redemption island duels pulling time away from the camp coverage. Between that and the immunity challenge, there's very little time to give to each of 16-12 people left in the game who aren't Coach and Ozzy. This premiere was an hour in running time.
George Hawtin
Yeah, an extra 15-20 minutes or so helps, as does the lack of a Redemption Island duel.
Mark Kalzer
I remember being more surprised the first time I watched South Pacific how the protagonist of the show for a good stretch wasn't Coach or Ozzy, (or even the winner in hindsight) but the new player Cochran. Cochran pulled focus from Coach. Already in episode 1 we can see how this is John's story.
George Hawtin
The premiere is surprisingly well-edited. For me, the only people who are completely invisible are Keith and Whitney. Everybody else gets something - and something that points to their long-term arc, too.
Mark Kalzer
Now am I just getting more savy about this, or are they editing these confessionals a lot? It's like I can hear the seams where they condense interviews to the bare bone of what's being said.
True. We really got a clear sense of the Upolu dynamic, and I appreciate that they didn't try to bury or edit around the 5 person alliance that ends up controlling the game.
George Hawtin
Edna has that great moment where she tries to befriend Coach without, as you say, trying to make any kind of alliance with him. That sort of thing is why "Edna" has become Survivor shorthand for the person who's used by the alliance for numbers without actually being onboard---like Sean was in Borneo.
Mark Kalzer
Seems strange in the modern era that Savaii hadn't already broken into alliances and sub alliances by day 3. I know back in the old school era you might still 2 or 3 votes before a real alliance breaks out, but nowadays alliances are formed seconds after they land on the beach.
Yeah Edna long term is one of those frustrating players where she's clearly on the bottom of the Upolu 6 yet never does a single thing about it. Based on the edit, she didn't even acknowledge it until Cochran left that she was on the bottom.
She fits what we used to call the 'Denise' model.
George Hawtin
I credit that to the nature of the players on Savaii. Dawn and Cochran get so wrapped up in their own interpersonal dramas. Papa Bear is a good player, but seems hesitant to overplay by forming any alliances. Ozzy, by virtue of his returnee status, challenge strength, and the absence of a Yul type, is guaranteed a leadership role...but he's a sufficiently passive social player that he's not going to say, okay, you, you, you, you, we're the final 5.
That tribe also has Jim, who's a pretty aggressive and dynamic guy, but is self-aware enough to try to manage the Ozzy situation. He doesn't want Ozzy to be the leader, but doesn't want to take Ozzy on either.
Mark Kalzer
Ozzy and Coach seem to be coming at this from different directions. Ozzy was the one both tribes wanted while Coach, was just Coach. But somehow Coach appears to be the better leader. I don't think Upolu was expecting this. Was Coach ever in a position to be a leader in his last two times out?
And is Ozzy a good leader?
George Hawtin
I guess it depends how you define "leader". I remember him being a Hantz-style boot-order-dictator on his first tribe in Tocantins.
Mark Kalzer
Or is it just, his maleness and athleticism that's carrying him?
George Hawtin
That and his status as a returnee, yes.
Thought
experiment: you're cast on a new season with Russell Swan, coming back for his
third time. Do you try to step up and be the leader.
Mark Kalzer
Depends on the size of the tribe. He was on a tribe of 6 last time.
I think the larger the tribe, the less I want to be leader. It's too easy to be overthrown.
Thought experiment: If they did this with say, Sandra and Cerie, they're the only returning players on a tribe of 9, is there any remote possibility they take on leadership roles?
Depends on the size of the tribe. He was on a tribe of 6 last time.
I think the larger the tribe, the less I want to be leader. It's too easy to be overthrown.
Thought experiment: If they did this with say, Sandra and Cerie, they're the only returning players on a tribe of 9, is there any remote possibility they take on leadership roles?
George Hawtin
I think you'd see the same deferentiality to their experience, but I think they'd shut that down pretty quick.
Mark Kalzer
It's kind of my issue right now with this format of returnees. The group of newbies plus 1 all star tends to only work with ones who naturally fit into that role. The only female we saw sit in this position was Stephanie.
They're always presented by Probst as assets due to their experience and athleticism. Yet so many of the best players spend a lot of the game just fitting in with the tribe.
There's really only one of those 'plus ones' who's asset as a tribe member was extremely questionable and they threw a challenge just to get rid of him.
George Hawtin
The worst part about this format is that the whole season is dictated by the ability of the returnees to mesh with their tribe. Essentially, this season got Brandon Hantz in the final 5 and Papa Bear out early because Coach is better at working with people than Ozzy is.
I think you'd see the same deferentiality to their experience, but I think they'd shut that down pretty quick.
Mark Kalzer
It's kind of my issue right now with this format of returnees. The group of newbies plus 1 all star tends to only work with ones who naturally fit into that role. The only female we saw sit in this position was Stephanie.
They're always presented by Probst as assets due to their experience and athleticism. Yet so many of the best players spend a lot of the game just fitting in with the tribe.
There's really only one of those 'plus ones' who's asset as a tribe member was extremely questionable and they threw a challenge just to get rid of him.
George Hawtin
The worst part about this format is that the whole season is dictated by the ability of the returnees to mesh with their tribe. Essentially, this season got Brandon Hantz in the final 5 and Papa Bear out early because Coach is better at working with people than Ozzy is.
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Mark Kalzer
How do you figure? Not sure I follow that...
George Hawtin
Mixed seasons pretty much automatically force their returning players into leadership roles.
From there, it's a question of which returnee is the best leader.
Mark Kalzer
That's what I argued! But there's only certain players who can fit that spot.
George Hawtin
Coach made a solid 5 + 1 alliance. Ozzy? Ozzy proclaimed himself a "free agent".
How do you figure? Not sure I follow that...
George Hawtin
Mixed seasons pretty much automatically force their returning players into leadership roles.
From there, it's a question of which returnee is the best leader.
Mark Kalzer
That's what I argued! But there's only certain players who can fit that spot.
George Hawtin
Coach made a solid 5 + 1 alliance. Ozzy? Ozzy proclaimed himself a "free agent".
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| Suppose he's eligible now; |
Mark Kalzer
Declaring yourself a free agent is about the worst possible thing you can do pre merge.
George Hawtin
So it's no surprise that, when it came down to it, Coach is the one who got someone to flip and kept the numbers on his side.
Mark Kalzer
But my thing is there's only certain players who can fit that default leadership role. If Caramoan had been like South Pacific and they put Dawn and Cochran in as the only two returnees... do people suddenly go up to Cochran and be like 'So Cochran, how should we build a shelter?'
'So Cochran, how do we win this challenge?'
George Hawtin
No, not at all.
That's just one reason why this is my absolute least-favourite season.
Mark Kalzer
Is there any remote universe where Brandon Hantz is the leader of a tribe?
Declaring yourself a free agent is about the worst possible thing you can do pre merge.
George Hawtin
So it's no surprise that, when it came down to it, Coach is the one who got someone to flip and kept the numbers on his side.
Mark Kalzer
But my thing is there's only certain players who can fit that default leadership role. If Caramoan had been like South Pacific and they put Dawn and Cochran in as the only two returnees... do people suddenly go up to Cochran and be like 'So Cochran, how should we build a shelter?'
'So Cochran, how do we win this challenge?'
George Hawtin
No, not at all.
That's just one reason why this is my absolute least-favourite season.
Mark Kalzer
Is there any remote universe where Brandon Hantz is the leader of a tribe?
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| "Do as a I say f***ers!" |
It's definitely nowhere near what Survivor used to be.
George Hawtin
The other thing to consider is that in the first of these seasons, Guatemala, people went the other way. They expected the returnees to lead camp life and contribute...but didn't consider them legitimate players when it came time to cast a jury vote. I wish it had stayed that way. Natalie T. would have an extra million dollars.
Mark Kalzer
It's like they take this game of 16-20 people, and reduce it to a game of Boston Rob vs. Russell Hantz or Coach vs. Ozzy. But Survivor isn't a duel.
By the way... Just playing back the premiere as we chat... you know one thing that kind of pisses me off? The newbies have to paddle in on boats to the opening, while Coach and Ozzy get to take a helicopter. A HELICOPTER. Sophie and then are exerting themselves and Coach hitches a ride. What is this puzzle challenge supposed to over exert Coach to the point where they're on an even pedestal to
George Hawtin
The other thing to consider is that in the first of these seasons, Guatemala, people went the other way. They expected the returnees to lead camp life and contribute...but didn't consider them legitimate players when it came time to cast a jury vote. I wish it had stayed that way. Natalie T. would have an extra million dollars.
Mark Kalzer
It's like they take this game of 16-20 people, and reduce it to a game of Boston Rob vs. Russell Hantz or Coach vs. Ozzy. But Survivor isn't a duel.
By the way... Just playing back the premiere as we chat... you know one thing that kind of pisses me off? The newbies have to paddle in on boats to the opening, while Coach and Ozzy get to take a helicopter. A HELICOPTER. Sophie and then are exerting themselves and Coach hitches a ride. What is this puzzle challenge supposed to over exert Coach to the point where they're on an even pedestal to
start?
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| "Man this is hard." |
George Hawtin
Yeah, that's what frustrates me - that and the fact that, as I was saying,
the other players can benefit too much from being on a tribe with the
"winner" of the "duel".
Mark Kalzer
Is that why Stephanie lost Guatemala? I watched it recently and I thought it was just because Stephanie had a really poor social game...
George Hawtin
Like, obviously, Survivor begins as a team game. If Hatch had ended up on Pagong, he might not have won. But in pure seasons where everyone is equal, you don't get a free pass to final 5 just because your returnee is better than the other tribe's returnee.
Mark Kalzer
I understand the perception is that she's entitled.
George Hawtin
I think that, like Pearl Islands, it was part about a poor social game but also part about them wanting to reward a new player. I could be wrong, though.
Mark Kalzer
But does anyone consider Coach a match for Ozzy challenge wise?
It's like everybody KNOWS Ozzy is a challenge monster. Upolu seemed just well put together enough that the tribes were equal. Plus they had Cochran on Savaii dragging them down.
George Hawtin
Challenge-wise? Of course not. But when it comes down to a tie situation at merge, it's about who keeps the team unified better, and that was Coach.
Mark Kalzer
Depends on how you frame the discussion. Is it Cochran's decision that lead to Savaii's downfall, or Ozzy's poor leadership?
The choice of a tribe is always the same. They can embrace the returnee as a leader, or they overthrow him. Doesn't necessarily mean they vote him out, but Savaii clearly overthrew Ozzy pre-merge there.
George Hawtin
Oh, I think it's absolutely Cochran's bad play.
He decides apropos of nothing that he's being bullied. He can't count.
For me, Cochran's move at the merge was to a., go to rocks; b., win; c., form an alliance with Dawn and Jim; d., go to final 3; e., win.
Mark Kalzer
Is that why Stephanie lost Guatemala? I watched it recently and I thought it was just because Stephanie had a really poor social game...
George Hawtin
Like, obviously, Survivor begins as a team game. If Hatch had ended up on Pagong, he might not have won. But in pure seasons where everyone is equal, you don't get a free pass to final 5 just because your returnee is better than the other tribe's returnee.
Mark Kalzer
I understand the perception is that she's entitled.
George Hawtin
I think that, like Pearl Islands, it was part about a poor social game but also part about them wanting to reward a new player. I could be wrong, though.
Mark Kalzer
But does anyone consider Coach a match for Ozzy challenge wise?
It's like everybody KNOWS Ozzy is a challenge monster. Upolu seemed just well put together enough that the tribes were equal. Plus they had Cochran on Savaii dragging them down.
George Hawtin
Challenge-wise? Of course not. But when it comes down to a tie situation at merge, it's about who keeps the team unified better, and that was Coach.
Mark Kalzer
Depends on how you frame the discussion. Is it Cochran's decision that lead to Savaii's downfall, or Ozzy's poor leadership?
The choice of a tribe is always the same. They can embrace the returnee as a leader, or they overthrow him. Doesn't necessarily mean they vote him out, but Savaii clearly overthrew Ozzy pre-merge there.
George Hawtin
Oh, I think it's absolutely Cochran's bad play.
He decides apropos of nothing that he's being bullied. He can't count.
For me, Cochran's move at the merge was to a., go to rocks; b., win; c., form an alliance with Dawn and Jim; d., go to final 3; e., win.
Mark Kalzer
Well this is a debate we'll have later on... but I don't think Cochran outright made a bad move at the time. I look at it less as a strategic move and more of that risk game he was playing with himself. He couldn't face the odds of pulling the wrong rock.
George Hawtin
But Cochran's certainty that "everyone" is one of the cool kids and bullying him cost him the game.
Yeah, we'll see when we get to that point.
Mark Kalzer
I'm going to watch for the bullying. I remember seing a bit of it when I first saw this. Right now, I perceiving it more as the fact that Ozzy is bringing up Cochran as a potential first boot and it's making Cochran panic.
Cochran never started this game with any sort of confidence and I think getting hit with that on day 3 really affected him for the rest of this game.
George Hawtin
Remind me, are you a Cochran fan, generally speaking?
Mark Kalzer
I'm divided on this. I wanted to like him this season, but I wish he was more self confident.
And I WISH he had a follow up to the move at the merge.
I think he learned a lot between this season and Caramoan. He clearly learned a lot about himself about how people perceive him and became a lot more comfortable with himself.
He comes off to me as that kid who only talks about Survivor strategy, ignoring the fact that Survivor is much more about social dynamics.
He's a former ORG player right?
George Hawtin
Not sure. I know Colton is.
Mark Kalzer
I think in Caramoan he was a great player, but he had a distinct advantage having Dawn with him from day 1 as a default alliance partner.
I wonder if he's a lot more comfortable around Survivor type people. South Pacific was still cast more with athletes and outdoorsy people who weren't as obsessed with the game.
Not sure. I know Colton is.
Mark Kalzer
I think in Caramoan he was a great player, but he had a distinct advantage having Dawn with him from day 1 as a default alliance partner.
I wonder if he's a lot more comfortable around Survivor type people. South Pacific was still cast more with athletes and outdoorsy people who weren't as obsessed with the game.
But as
you said before about the difference between strategy and social dynamics, the
stuff Cochran "knows" is kind of irrelevant.
Mark Kalzer
Here in South Pacific, he keeps anticipating Jeff Probst's lines. He's like that annoying kid in the theatre in Star Trek Into Darkness who keeps pointing out all the continuity errors present between this universe and the prime universe. I think the other Savaii's, Ozzy included kind of resent that Cochran knows so much more than they do.
But having this encyclopedic knowledge of the game doesn't matter if you can't handle the physical or the social. Doesn't matter how many buffs you have at home.
George Hawtin
Exactly.
"I may have not wanted to socialize with anyone, but I knew that at the challenge, Jeff was going to say, 'Wanna know what you're playing for?', so give me a million dollars!"
One thing they really beat into your head in library school is that *anything* can count as knowledge, and that any knowledge can be valuable, but that it's about context.
Cochran really lost me in this episode. And it's not like he ever really had me.
Mark Kalzer
And what was it Cochran said as he was voting for Coach to win? He said 'Hopefully we don't have a bitter jury.'
I just personally hate that attitude.
It's tough cause Cohran's the guy that's supposed to represent us. Maybe a lot of us die hard fans ARE closer to Cochran then you or I.
The next guy that was supposed to fill that slot was Colton and he alienated us from day 1.
Mark Kalzer
Here in South Pacific, he keeps anticipating Jeff Probst's lines. He's like that annoying kid in the theatre in Star Trek Into Darkness who keeps pointing out all the continuity errors present between this universe and the prime universe. I think the other Savaii's, Ozzy included kind of resent that Cochran knows so much more than they do.
But having this encyclopedic knowledge of the game doesn't matter if you can't handle the physical or the social. Doesn't matter how many buffs you have at home.
George Hawtin
Exactly.
"I may have not wanted to socialize with anyone, but I knew that at the challenge, Jeff was going to say, 'Wanna know what you're playing for?', so give me a million dollars!"
One thing they really beat into your head in library school is that *anything* can count as knowledge, and that any knowledge can be valuable, but that it's about context.
Cochran really lost me in this episode. And it's not like he ever really had me.
Mark Kalzer
And what was it Cochran said as he was voting for Coach to win? He said 'Hopefully we don't have a bitter jury.'
I just personally hate that attitude.
It's tough cause Cohran's the guy that's supposed to represent us. Maybe a lot of us die hard fans ARE closer to Cochran then you or I.
The next guy that was supposed to fill that slot was Colton and he alienated us from day 1.
George Hawtin
Yeah, a lot of fans seem to feel like Cochran represents them. I don't like that, personally; I'd rather watch a good player than one who reminds me of me.
Mark Kalzer
I don't think anyone at CBS blames us for turning on Colton, but Cochran was the guy nerds everywhere was supposed to root for.
George Hawtin
This is why when I watch Panama, I don't root for Shane.
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| "George won't root for me? I'll f***ing kill him... |
Mark Kalzer
Well before we close this... anything on Semhar? You bashed her poetry there in your review.
Where do you stand on the debate of her stepping up to shoot coconuts when she couldn't?
Also... are you watching Reality Gamemasters?
George Hawtin
She may not have known that she couldn't. I think she did the best she could. Actually, the poetry is a great metaphor for the coconuts: you don't always do your best when you're put on the spot. I really wish they'd voted out Cochran over her in the first episode - she wouldn't have been any weaker in challenges and would have been more loyal - but she brought that on herself by not scrambling harder to stay.
I'm not [watching Reality Gamemasters], but I am aware of it. I'll probably go catch up on it all one of these days.
Mark Kalzer
(Note for archival purposes: This is being written around the time Episode 2 of Reality Gamemasters has aired. Last we saw is of Cochran being lobbied by Ian Terry to flop to the Big Brother alliance.)
It's only 7 minutes per episode.
George Hawtin
Yeah, I'll definitely look at it. I don't know the Big Brother people at all, and don't like Sophie or Cochran, so there's not that much in it for me other than Fishbach.
And I believe Billy is involved somehow too. Billy.
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| Okay... nothing on Semhar. Sorry Semhar. |
Mark Kalzer
I suppose I should close this out here... unless you have any other thoughts...
George Hawtin
Nope, I'm good. Looking forward to episode 2!
I suppose I should close this out here... unless you have any other thoughts...
George Hawtin
Nope, I'm good. Looking forward to episode 2!
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